At our next meeting there will be a discussion about a
member who wishes to make a partial withdrawal from her
capital account. What is the experience of other clubs with
this issue?
ira smilovitz on
We allow them, but restrict to one per year per member. I think we've processed four in 17 years of existence. The only real issue is raising the cash to fund the withdrawal. You don't wan't to transfer stock because that can lead to dramatic distortions in the timing of tax payments (though the total taxable gain/loss over the total membership period will be the same).
Partial withdrawals provide the perfect opportunity for a club to review and rebalance its portfolio, weeding out companies that are underperforming or stocks that have reached their full projected potential share price.
At our next meeting there will be a discussion about a
member who wishes to make a partial withdrawal from her
capital account. What is the experience of other clubs with
this issue?
Jean Wochna on
Our club allows a total of 3 withdrawals during the tenure of a member in the club if a vote by the partners is favor. We have had only 3 occurrences in the years I have been treasurer. We have been fortunate to be able to have other members buy out the position so that we do not have a large payout of cash causing us to sell stocks. so far it has never been a problem.
Jean
On Wednesday, June 15, 2016 1:49 PM, Janice Burwell via bivio.com <user*19474800001@bivio.com> wrote:
At our next meeting there will be a discussion about a member who wishes to make a partial withdrawal from her capital account. What is the experience of other clubs with this issue?
ira smilovitz on
No withdrawal should ever be at the discretion of the other members. They can't know the circumstances behind the request (that is, why a member needs the funds), nor should they. Restrictions on frequency make sense so that members don't use the club as a short-term repository for cash which will be needed shortly and we recognize that a withdrawal does create extra demands on the membership to rebalance the portfolio.
Our club allows a total of 3 withdrawals during the tenure of a member in the club if a vote by the partners is favor. We have had only 3 occurrences in the years I have been treasurer. We have been fortunate to be able to have other members buy out the position so that we do not have a large payout of cash causing us to sell stocks. so far it has never been a problem.
At our next meeting there will be a discussion about a member who wishes to make a partial withdrawal from her capital account. What is the experience of other clubs with this issue?
Barrett on
Our club's view is that it's their money. Therefore for voluntary withdrawals we allow anyone to withdraw any amount at anytime up to 5% of the club's holdings per month and the club will honor that withdrawal request within 60 days. So if someone owned 25% they could take up to 5-6 months for a full withdrawal. A full withdrawal can be immediate if approved by a majority vote for the following reasons: death, physically incapacitated, or delinquency (non-participation).
There's a mutual understanding by partners that withdrawals can be disruptive especially if they force liquidation of assets. So we don't get withdrawals often (partial or full). We're a small club (currently 6 partners) and fairly tight-nit group.
I understand other partnerships want to limit withdrawal frequency because they want to control the behavior of other partners. However part of me feels that if you can't trust the people you invest with to "play nice" then maybe they (or you) shouldn't be in the partnership. It's just my opinion and I recognize many clubs do have additional limitations on withdrawals. Personally, for me, such restrictions would turn me off from joining a club simply because you never know what life throws your way (death, sickness, etc.).
No withdrawal should ever be at the discretion of the other members. They can't know the circumstances behind the request (that is, why a member needs the funds), nor should they. Restrictions on frequency make sense so that members don't use the club as a short-term repository for cash which will be needed shortly and we recognize that a withdrawal does create extra demands on the membership to rebalance the portfolio.
Our club allows a total of 3 withdrawals during the tenure of a member in the club if a vote by the partners is favor. We have had only 3 occurrences in the years I have been treasurer. We have been fortunate to be able to have other members buy out the position so that we do not have a large payout of cash causing us to sell stocks. so far it has never been a problem.
At our next meeting there will be a discussion about a member who wishes to make a partial withdrawal from her capital account. What is the experience of other clubs with this issue?
Sheryl on
Our Partnership and By-Laws spell this out. One issue we encountered was when a member wants to withdraw more than they contributed, taking part of profits.....but not a full withdrawal. Worked it out.
Our club's view is that it's their money. Therefore for voluntary withdrawals we allow anyone to withdraw any amount at anytime up to 5% of the club's holdings per month and the club will honor that withdrawal request within 60 days. So if someone owned 25% they could take up to 5-6 months for a full withdrawal. A full withdrawal can be immediate if approved by a majority vote for the following reasons: death, physically incapacitated, or delinquency (non-participation).
There's a mutual understanding by partners that withdrawals can be disruptive especially if they force liquidation of assets. So we don't get withdrawals often (partial or full). We're a small club (currently 6 partners) and fairly tight-nit group.
I understand other partnerships want to limit withdrawal frequency because they want to control the behavior of other partners. However part of me feels that if you can't trust the people you invest with to "play nice" then maybe they (or you) shouldn't be in the partnership. It's just my opinion and I recognize many clubs do have additional limitations on withdrawals. Personally, for me, such restrictions would turn me off from joining a club simply because you never know what life throws your way (death, sickness, etc.).
No withdrawal should ever be at the discretion of the other members. They can't know the circumstances behind the request (that is, why a member needs the funds), nor should they. Restrictions on frequency make sense so that members don't use the club as a short-term repository for cash which will be needed shortly and we recognize that a withdrawal does create extra demands on the membership to rebalance the portfolio.
Our club allows a total of 3 withdrawals during the tenure of a member in the club if a vote by the partners is favor. We have had only 3 occurrences in the years I have been treasurer. We have been fortunate to be able to have other members buy out the position so that we do not have a large payout of cash causing us to sell stocks. so far it has never been a problem.
At our next meeting there will be a discussion about a member who wishes to make a partial withdrawal from her capital account. What is the experience of other clubs with this issue?
ira smilovitz on
There's no issue with a partner taking out more than they contributed. If there have been gains over the years, the partner's tax basis will be higher than his/her contributions. As long as the withdrawal is less than the tax basis, there are no immediate tax consequences to the partner. If the withdrawal is greater than the tax basis, some of the withdrawal will be taxable. The software handles all of the tax ramifications. The only issue is if a partner wants to withdraw more than they own. <g>
Our Partnership and By-Laws spell this out. One issue we encountered was when a member wants to withdraw more than they contributed, taking part of profits.....but not a full withdrawal. Worked it out.
Our club's view is that it's their money. Therefore for voluntary withdrawals we allow anyone to withdraw any amount at anytime up to 5% of the club's holdings per month and the club will honor that withdrawal request within 60 days. So if someone owned 25% they could take up to 5-6 months for a full withdrawal. A full withdrawal can be immediate if approved by a majority vote for the following reasons: death, physically incapacitated, or delinquency (non-participation).
There's a mutual understanding by partners that withdrawals can be disruptive especially if they force liquidation of assets. So we don't get withdrawals often (partial or full). We're a small club (currently 6 partners) and fairly tight-nit group.
I understand other partnerships want to limit withdrawal frequency because they want to control the behavior of other partners. However part of me feels that if you can't trust the people you invest with to "play nice" then maybe they (or you) shouldn't be in the partnership. It's just my opinion and I recognize many clubs do have additional limitations on withdrawals. Personally, for me, such restrictions would turn me off from joining a club simply because you never know what life throws your way (death, sickness, etc.).
No withdrawal should ever be at the discretion of the other members. They can't know the circumstances behind the request (that is, why a member needs the funds), nor should they. Restrictions on frequency make sense so that members don't use the club as a short-term repository for cash which will be needed shortly and we recognize that a withdrawal does create extra demands on the membership to rebalance the portfolio.
Our club allows a total of 3 withdrawals during the tenure of a member in the club if a vote by the partners is favor. We have had only 3 occurrences in the years I have been treasurer. We have been fortunate to be able to have other members buy out the position so that we do not have a large payout of cash causing us to sell stocks. so far it has never been a problem.
At our next meeting there will be a discussion about a member who wishes to make a partial withdrawal from her capital account. What is the experience of other clubs with this issue?
Dave & Betsy Rowekamp on
We have had one partial withdrawal paid by stock transfer and did not have any problem. I'm not sure what Ira means by "dramatic distortions in the timing of tax payments". Capital gains tax for the withdrawing member is incurred when the transferred stock is sold by the withdrawing member. The tax basis is different in a partial vs. full withdrawal but as Ira stated the total tax paid over the entire time the partially withdrawing member is in the club ( till full withdrawal ) will be exactly the same.
We allow them, but restrict to one per year per member. I think we've processed four in 17 years of existence. The only real issue is raising the cash to fund the withdrawal. You don't wan't to transfer stock because that can lead to dramatic distortions in the timing of tax payments (though the total taxable gain/loss over the total membership period will be the same).
Partial withdrawals provide the perfect opportunity for a club to review and rebalance its portfolio, weeding out companies that are underperforming or stocks that have reached their full projected potential share price.
At our next meeting there will be a discussion about a
member who wishes to make a partial withdrawal from her
capital account. What is the experience of other clubs with
this issue?
ira smilovitz on
Here's what I meant about tax timing distortion. The first assumption is that a member requesting a partial withdrawal is doing so because they need the cash for some reason. Therefore they are likely to sell any transferred shares as soon as they receive them.
Example 1: Member A requests $10K partial withdrawal. A's tax basis in club at time of withdrawal is $15K. A receives $10K cash. Tax effect: none. A's tax basis in club is reduced to $5K.
Example 2: Same as example 1 except club chooses to transfer shares of stock worth $10K to A where the club has a cost basis of $1K (following recommendation for full withdrawal - transfer highly appreciated stock). A receives the $10K of stock, assumes the club's $1K of basis. A sells stock immediately. A owes tax on $9K of capital gain. A's tax basis in club is reduced to $14K. Years from now, when A fully withdraws from club, A will have $9K less taxable capital gain.
Example 3: Same as example 1 except club chooses to transfer a loser - shares of stock worth $10K with a cost basis of $20K. A receives the $20K of stock and assumes the club's $20K of basis. A sells stock immediately
On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 11:24 PM, Dave & Betsy Rowekamp <rowefam@hbci.com> wrote:
We have had one partial withdrawal paid by stock transfer and did not have any problem. I'm not sure what Ira means by "dramatic distortions in the timing of tax payments". Capital gains tax for the withdrawing member is incurred when the transferred stock is sold by the withdrawing member. The tax basis is different in a partial vs. full withdrawal but as Ira stated the total tax paid over the entire time the partially withdrawing member is in the club ( till full withdrawal ) will be exactly the same.
We allow them, but restrict to one per year per member. I think we've processed four in 17 years of existence. The only real issue is raising the cash to fund the withdrawal. You don't wan't to transfer stock because that can lead to dramatic distortions in the timing of tax payments (though the total taxable gain/loss over the total membership period will be the same).
Partial withdrawals provide the perfect opportunity for a club to review and rebalance its portfolio, weeding out companies that are underperforming or stocks that have reached their full projected potential share price.
At our next meeting there will be a discussion about a
member who wishes to make a partial withdrawal from her
capital account. What is the experience of other clubs with
this issue?
ira smilovitz on
Sorry... sent before finished....and edited to make example 3 simpler.
Here's what I meant about tax timing distortion. The first assumption is that a member requesting a partial withdrawal is doing so because they need the cash for some reason. Therefore they are likely to sell any transferred shares as soon as they receive them.
Example 1: Member A requests $10K partial withdrawal. A's tax basis in club at time of withdrawal is $25K. A receives $10K cash. Tax effect: none. A's tax basis in club is reduced to $15K.
Example 2: Same as example 1 except club chooses to transfer shares of stock worth $10K to A where the club has a cost basis of $1K (following recommendation for full withdrawal - transfer highly appreciated stock). A receives the $10K of stock, assumes the club's $1K of basis. A sells stock immediately. A owes tax on $9K of capital gain. A's tax basis in club is reduced to $24K. Years from now, when A fully withdraws from club, A will have $9K less taxable capital gain.
Example 3: Same as example 1 except club chooses to transfer a loser - shares of stock worth $10K with a cost basis of $20K. A receives the $10K of stock and assumes the club's $20K of basis. A sells stock immediately. A has a $10K capital loss which will yield an immediate tax benefit (to be taken over 3+ years at $3K/year). A's tax basis in club is reduced to $5K. Years from now, when A fully withdraws from club, A will have $10K more capital gain to report.
In a full withdrawal, no matter how the withdrawal is funded, the tax impact for the withdrawing member is the same and s/he can control the tax timing if the payment is in stock. The remaining members can defer their taxes by funding the withdrawal in appreciated stock or selling a loser to generate a current year tax loss.
Here's what I meant about tax timing distortion. The first assumption is that a member requesting a partial withdrawal is doing so because they need the cash for some reason. Therefore they are likely to sell any transferred shares as soon as they receive them.
Example 1: Member A requests $10K partial withdrawal. A's tax basis in club at time of withdrawal is $25K. A receives $10K cash. Tax effect: none. A's tax basis in club is reduced to $15K.
Example 2: Same as example 1 except club chooses to transfer shares of stock worth $10K to A where the club has a cost basis of $1K (following recommendation for full withdrawal - transfer highly appreciated stock). A receives the $10K of stock, assumes the club's $1K of basis. A sells stock immediately. A owes tax on $9K of capital gain. A's tax basis in club is reduced to $24K. Years from now, when A fully withdraws from club, A will have $9K less taxable capital gain.
Example 3: Same as example 1 except club chooses to transfer a loser - shares of stock worth $10K with a cost basis of $20K. A receives the $20K of stock and assumes the club's $20K of basis. A sells stock immediately. A has a $10K capital loss which will yield an immediate tax benefit (to be taken over 3+ years at $3K/year). A's tax basis in club is reduced to $5K. Years from now, when A fully withdraws from club, A will have $10K more capital gain to report.
On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 11:24 PM, Dave & Betsy Rowekamp <rowefam@hbci.com> wrote:
We have had one partial withdrawal paid by stock transfer and did not have any problem. I'm not sure what Ira means by "dramatic distortions in the timing of tax payments". Capital gains tax for the withdrawing member is incurred when the transferred stock is sold by the withdrawing member. The tax basis is different in a partial vs. full withdrawal but as Ira stated the total tax paid over the entire time the partially withdrawing member is in the club ( till full withdrawal ) will be exactly the same.
We allow them, but restrict to one per year per member. I think we've processed four in 17 years of existence. The only real issue is raising the cash to fund the withdrawal. You don't wan't to transfer stock because that can lead to dramatic distortions in the timing of tax payments (though the total taxable gain/loss over the total membership period will be the same).
Partial withdrawals provide the perfect opportunity for a club to review and rebalance its portfolio, weeding out companies that are underperforming or stocks that have reached their full projected potential share price.
At our next meeting there will be a discussion about a
member who wishes to make a partial withdrawal from her
capital account. What is the experience of other clubs with
this issue?
Dave & Betsy Rowekamp on
Thanks Ira. In our case a member chose to hang on to the stock and donate it to charity, not to sell it.
Here's what I meant about tax timing distortion. The first assumption is that a member requesting a partial withdrawal is doing so because they need the cash for some reason. Therefore they are likely to sell any transferred shares as soon as they receive them.
Example 1: Member A requests $10K partial withdrawal. A's tax basis in club at time of withdrawal is $15K. A receives $10K cash. Tax effect: none. A's tax basis in club is reduced to $5K.
Example 2: Same as example 1 except club chooses to transfer shares of stock worth $10K to A where the club has a cost basis of $1K (following recommendation for full withdrawal - transfer highly appreciated stock). A receives the $10K of stock, assumes the club's $1K of basis. A sells stock immediately. A owes tax on $9K of capital gain. A's tax basis in club is reduced to $14K. Years from now, when A fully withdraws from club, A will have $9K less taxable capital gain.
Example 3: Same as example 1 except club chooses to transfer a loser - shares of stock worth $10K with a cost basis of $20K. A receives the $20K of stock and assumes the club's $20K of basis. A sells stock immediately
On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 11:24 PM, Dave & Betsy Rowekamp <rowefam@hbci.com> wrote:
We have had one partial withdrawal paid by stock transfer and did not have any problem. I'm not sure what Ira means by "dramatic distortions in the timing of tax payments". Capital gains tax for the withdrawing member is incurred when the transferred stock is sold by the withdrawing member. The tax basis is different in a partial vs. full withdrawal but as Ira stated the total tax paid over the entire time the partially withdrawing member is in the club ( till full withdrawal ) will be exactly the same.
We allow them, but restrict to one per year per member. I think we've processed four in 17 years of existence. The only real issue is raising the cash to fund the withdrawal. You don't wan't to transfer stock because that can lead to dramatic distortions in the timing of tax payments (though the total taxable gain/loss over the total membership period will be the same).
Partial withdrawals provide the perfect opportunity for a club to review and rebalance its portfolio, weeding out companies that are underperforming or stocks that have reached their full projected potential share price.
At our next meeting there will be a discussion about a
member who wishes to make a partial withdrawal from her
capital account. What is the experience of other clubs with
this issue?