Very enlightening. So "efiling" is not so much sending the return electronically as preparing the return in a format that can be sent electronically? So is there software into which I can key what is on line 1 of form 1, then line 2 of form 1, etc., and efile that info? Or is it universally necessary that the return be prepared in the software from which the return will be efiled?
Bottom line is that it will cost you $125 to purchase software that will provide federal only efiling capability. The cost to enter the appropriate data for the return is the monetary value of the time invested. There isn't a product that provides efiling capability for a return prepared outside of the efiling software.
Very interesting. I would have thought that a 1065 prep software would allow for varying partnership allocations during the year. But I have never really thought it through.
But if Bivio does the accounting for the year, and then generates the return, all you are looking for is a vehicle to do the electronic filing once the return is prepared. Isn't that different from software that prepares the return?
The problem with retail software that "could" produce a partnership return is that none of them prepare an investment club return correctly. Commercial software (both retail and professional) is designed to prepare returns where the partnership percentages are constant throughout the year. They then apply those percentages to the club totals for the relevant items (dividends, capital gains, expenses, etc.) to generate the K-1s. Most investment clubs have changing percent ownership throughout the year. The way you would have to prepare the return using software which isn't customized for investment clubs would be to calculate what each K-1 entry should be outside of the software and then enter the amounts as overrides to the amounts calculated by the software. This is time consuming and prone to errors.
Probably the least expensive software out there for filing a partnership return (federal only) is TaxAct at $125.
I would think there might be commercially available software at a reasonable price.
Peter Dunkelberger
On Thu, Aug 18, 2022 at 6:21 PM Robert Nagler <nagler@bivio.biz> wrote:
Hi Anna,
> What our club really wanted was electronic filing with the IRS. I looked at your price list and none of the options include this. > > Is this included, if not, why?
It has to be programmed first. This is why we are raising prices. We need to hire a full-time programmer who will have this as one of their tasks. It will not be ready for the 2022 tax year. However, there's a good chance we'll have it ready for 2023.
Cheers, Rob
ira smilovitz on
An efiled return is an encrypted xml file containing a list of field names and values representing the information on the return as well as information about the software and computer where the file was prepared (systemic error and anti-fraud measures). The precise makeup of the file is now confidential (only approved software developers have access), but if you want an idea of what it entails, take a look at IRS Pub. 1346. The 2012 version is publicly available.
Yes, any software will allow you to key in each line independently. It is known as overriding the calculations. The problem with overrides is that they may switch off some/all of the error checking routines built into the software. Regardless of whether you let the software do all the calculations or override some/all the entries, it will cost a minimum of $125 for that ability.
Very enlightening. So "efiling" is not so much sending the return electronically as preparing the return in a format that can be sent electronically? So is there software into which I can key what is on line 1 of form 1, then line 2 of form 1, etc., and efile that info? Or is it universally necessary that the return be prepared in the software from which the return will be efiled?
Bottom line is that it will cost you $125 to purchase software that will provide federal only efiling capability. The cost to enter the appropriate data for the return is the monetary value of the time invested. There isn't a product that provides efiling capability for a return prepared outside of the efiling software.
Very interesting. I would have thought that a 1065 prep software would allow for varying partnership allocations during the year. But I have never really thought it through.
But if Bivio does the accounting for the year, and then generates the return, all you are looking for is a vehicle to do the electronic filing once the return is prepared. Isn't that different from software that prepares the return?
The problem with retail software that "could" produce a partnership return is that none of them prepare an investment club return correctly. Commercial software (both retail and professional) is designed to prepare returns where the partnership percentages are constant throughout the year. They then apply those percentages to the club totals for the relevant items (dividends, capital gains, expenses, etc.) to generate the K-1s. Most investment clubs have changing percent ownership throughout the year. The way you would have to prepare the return using software which isn't customized for investment clubs would be to calculate what each K-1 entry should be outside of the software and then enter the amounts as overrides to the amounts calculated by the software. This is time consuming and prone to errors.
Probably the least expensive software out there for filing a partnership return (federal only) is TaxAct at $125.
I would think there might be commercially available software at a reasonable price.
Peter Dunkelberger
On Thu, Aug 18, 2022 at 6:21 PM Robert Nagler <nagler@bivio.biz> wrote:
Hi Anna,
> What our club really wanted was electronic filing with the IRS. I looked at your price list and none of the options include this. > > Is this included, if not, why?
It has to be programmed first. This is why we are raising prices. We need to hire a full-time programmer who will have this as one of their tasks. It will not be ready for the 2022 tax year. However, there's a good chance we'll have it ready for 2023.
Cheers, Rob
Linda TerHaar on
I'll repeat what many others have said before: without bivio, no one in our club would take on the job of treasurer. Dependable, correct accounting and tax preparation are what bivio gives us that we don't want to have to learn and do for ourselves. Our focus is on learning about investing, not accounting and taxes. For us on the issue of taxes, the key thing is having the return itself. E-filing might be nice, but printing and mailing the return are tasks we are capable of doing, and if that's a trade-off we need to make, we're good with that.
An efiled return is an encrypted xml file containing a list of field names and values representing the information on the return as well as information about the software and computer where the file was prepared (systemic error and anti-fraud measures). The precise makeup of the file is now confidential (only approved software developers have access), but if you want an idea of what it entails, take a look at IRS Pub. 1346. The 2012 version is publicly available.
Yes, any software will allow you to key in each line independently. It is known as overriding the calculations. The problem with overrides is that they may switch off some/all of the error checking routines built into the software. Regardless of whether you let the software do all the calculations or override some/all the entries, it will cost a minimum of $125 for that ability.
Very enlightening. So "efiling" is not so much sending the return electronically as preparing the return in a format that can be sent electronically? So is there software into which I can key what is on line 1 of form 1, then line 2 of form 1, etc., and efile that info? Or is it universally necessary that the return be prepared in the software from which the return will be efiled?
Bottom line is that it will cost you $125 to purchase software that will provide federal only efiling capability. The cost to enter the appropriate data for the return is the monetary value of the time invested. There isn't a product that provides efiling capability for a return prepared outside of the efiling software.
Very interesting. I would have thought that a 1065 prep software would allow for varying partnership allocations during the year. But I have never really thought it through.
But if Bivio does the accounting for the year, and then generates the return, all you are looking for is a vehicle to do the electronic filing once the return is prepared. Isn't that different from software that prepares the return?
The problem with retail software that "could" produce a partnership return is that none of them prepare an investment club return correctly. Commercial software (both retail and professional) is designed to prepare returns where the partnership percentages are constant throughout the year. They then apply those percentages to the club totals for the relevant items (dividends, capital gains, expenses, etc.) to generate the K-1s. Most investment clubs have changing percent ownership throughout the year. The way you would have to prepare the return using software which isn't customized for investment clubs would be to calculate what each K-1 entry should be outside of the software and then enter the amounts as overrides to the amounts calculated by the software. This is time consuming and prone to errors.
Probably the least expensive software out there for filing a partnership return (federal only) is TaxAct at $125.
I would think there might be commercially available software at a reasonable price.
Peter Dunkelberger
On Thu, Aug 18, 2022 at 6:21 PM Robert Nagler <nagler@bivio.biz> wrote:
Hi Anna,
> What our club really wanted was electronic filing with the IRS. I looked at your price list and none of the options include this. > > Is this included, if not, why?
It has to be programmed first. This is why we are raising prices. We need to hire a full-time programmer who will have this as one of their tasks. It will not be ready for the 2022 tax year. However, there's a good chance we'll have it ready for 2023.
Cheers, Rob
--
PPlease consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
I'll repeat what many others have said before: without bivio, no one in our club would take on the job of treasurer. Dependable, correct accounting and tax preparation are what bivio gives us that we don't want to have to learn and do for ourselves. Our focus is on learning about investing, not accounting and taxes. For us on the issue of taxes, the key thing is having the return itself. E-filing might be nice, but printing and mailing the return are tasks we are capable of doing, and if that's a trade-off we need to make, we're good with that.
An efiled return is an encrypted xml file containing a list of field names and values representing the information on the return as well as information about the software and computer where the file was prepared (systemic error and anti-fraud measures). The precise makeup of the file is now confidential (only approved software developers have access), but if you want an idea of what it entails, take a look at IRS Pub. 1346. The 2012 version is publicly available.
Yes, any software will allow you to key in each line independently. It is known as overriding the calculations. The problem with overrides is that they may switch off some/all of the error checking routines built into the software. Regardless of whether you let the software do all the calculations or override some/all the entries, it will cost a minimum of $125 for that ability.
Very enlightening. So "efiling" is not so much sending the return electronically as preparing the return in a format that can be sent electronically? So is there software into which I can key what is on line 1 of form 1, then line 2 of form 1, etc., and efile that info? Or is it universally necessary that the return be prepared in the software from which the return will be efiled?
Bottom line is that it will cost you $125 to purchase software that will provide federal only efiling capability. The cost to enter the appropriate data for the return is the monetary value of the time invested. There isn't a product that provides efiling capability for a return prepared outside of the efiling software.
Very interesting. I would have thought that a 1065 prep software would allow for varying partnership allocations during the year. But I have never really thought it through.
But if Bivio does the accounting for the year, and then generates the return, all you are looking for is a vehicle to do the electronic filing once the return is prepared. Isn't that different from software that prepares the return?
The problem with retail software that "could" produce a partnership return is that none of them prepare an investment club return correctly. Commercial software (both retail and professional) is designed to prepare returns where the partnership percentages are constant throughout the year. They then apply those percentages to the club totals for the relevant items (dividends, capital gains, expenses, etc.) to generate the K-1s. Most investment clubs have changing percent ownership throughout the year. The way you would have to prepare the return using software which isn't customized for investment clubs would be to calculate what each K-1 entry should be outside of the software and then enter the amounts as overrides to the amounts calculated by the software. This is time consuming and prone to errors.
Probably the least expensive software out there for filing a partnership return (federal only) is TaxAct at $125.
I would think there might be commercially available software at a reasonable price.
Peter Dunkelberger
On Thu, Aug 18, 2022 at 6:21 PM Robert Nagler <nagler@bivio.biz> wrote:
Hi Anna,
> What our club really wanted was electronic filing with the IRS. I looked at your price list and none of the options include this. > > Is this included, if not, why?
It has to be programmed first. This is why we are raising prices. We need to hire a full-time programmer who will have this as one of their tasks. It will not be ready for the 2022 tax year. However, there's a good chance we'll have it ready for 2023.
Cheers, Rob
--
PPlease consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
sdstory@aol.com on
So glad BIVIO will remain the same - or better !! The price increases are well worth it. Thank you.
Wonderful news about a full time programmer and the ability to e-file ~!
Our state (Louisiana) will start requiring state tax returns for tax year 2022 (it was to be for tax year 2021, but has been delayed a year).
Will you add Louisiana to the states for which you provide tax services then?
Will e-filing be possible for the states as well as the Federal tax return?
Being treasurer is made easier with BIVIO for sure !!!
Sheryl Story
sdstory@aol.com
On Friday, August 19, 2022 at 10:28:12 AM EDT, Linda TerHaar via bivio.com <user*19612700001@bivio.com> wrote:
I'll repeat what many others have said before: without bivio, no one in our club would take on the job of treasurer. Dependable, correct accounting and tax preparation are what bivio gives us that we don't want to have to learn and do for ourselves. Our focus is on learning about investing, not accounting and taxes. For us on the issue of taxes, the key thing is having the return itself. E-filing might be nice, but printing and mailing the return are tasks we are capable of doing, and if that's a trade-off we need to make, we're good with that.
An efiled return is an encrypted xml file containing a list of field names and values representing the information on the return as well as information about the software and computer where the file was prepared (systemic error and anti-fraud measures). The precise makeup of the file is now confidential (only approved software developers have access), but if you want an idea of what it entails, take a look at IRS Pub. 1346. The 2012 version is publicly available.
Yes, any software will allow you to key in each line independently. It is known as overriding the calculations. The problem with overrides is that they may switch off some/all of the error checking routines built into the software. Regardless of whether you let the software do all the calculations or override some/all the entries, it will cost a minimum of $125 for that ability.
Very enlightening. So "efiling" is not so much sending the return electronically as preparing the return in a format that can be sent electronically? So is there software into which I can key what is on line 1 of form 1, then line 2 of form 1, etc., and efile that info? Or is it universally necessary that the return be prepared in the software from which the return will be efiled?
Bottom line is that it will cost you $125 to purchase software that will provide federal only efiling capability. The cost to enter the appropriate data for the return is the monetary value of the time invested. There isn't a product that provides efiling capability for a return prepared outside of the efiling software.
Very interesting. I would have thought that a 1065 prep software would allow for varying partnership allocations during the year. But I have never really thought it through.
But if Bivio does the accounting for the year, and then generates the return, all you are looking for is a vehicle to do the electronic filing once the return is prepared. Isn't that different from software that prepares the return?
The problem with retail software that "could" produce a partnership return is that none of them prepare an investment club return correctly. Commercial software (both retail and professional) is designed to prepare returns where the partnership percentages are constant throughout the year. They then apply those percentages to the club totals for the relevant items (dividends, capital gains, expenses, etc.) to generate the K-1s. Most investment clubs have changing percent ownership throughout the year. The way you would have to prepare the return using software which isn't customized for investment clubs would be to calculate what each K-1 entry should be outside of the software and then enter the amounts as overrides to the amounts calculated by the software. This is time consuming and prone to errors.
Probably the least expensive software out there for filing a partnership return (federal only) is TaxAct at $125.
I would think there might be commercially available software at a reasonable price.
Peter Dunkelberger
On Thu, Aug 18, 2022 at 6:21 PM Robert Nagler <nagler@bivio.biz> wrote:
Hi Anna,
> What our club really wanted was electronic filing with the IRS. I looked at your price list and none of the options include this. > > Is this included, if not, why?
It has to be programmed first. This is why we are raising prices. We need to hire a full-time programmer who will have this as one of their tasks. It will not be ready for the 2022 tax year. However, there's a good chance we'll have it ready for 2023.
Cheers, Rob
--
PPlease consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
Robert Nagler on
Hi Charlotte and Len,
Charlotte wrote:
> Our club would definitely favor the two-factor ID. We've worried about security since we realized that bivio does not log you out automatically. If you just close the program you are not logged out. Isn't this a risk?
This is a complicated question, unfortunately. Everything has its risks.
One risk factor relates to how likely your computer is to be infected with a malicious virus. If your computer is infected, two-factor does not help in this case. In fact almost nothing helps.
Another risk factor is logging into the site that's not actually the site. This might happen if you receive a malicious email. Never click on emails that are unsolicited. Two factor authentication (using email) has increased this risk, because we now get emails that require you to click on the link in the email.
Do not reuse passwords. First step to this is getting a good quality password manager such as 1password.com or lastpass.com. You can also use your browser's built in password manager, but this is less flexible. Every site should get its own, long (20 character), randomly generated password. Password managers make it easy to do this.
Manage your computer properly: always require a password or other factor (e.g. fingerprint) when you wake it up or boot. Encrypt your disk. This is called BitLocker on Windows or FileVault on the Mac. This is a simple thing to do, and will prevent headaches if you lose your computer or need to send it in for repair. Make sure your anti-virus software is running on Windows (it comes with Windows now, you don't need to buy a subscription).
Multi-factor is something people recommend for people who don't do the above things, which most people don't do. Multifactor doesn't actually reduce the virus risk. Indeed, I think it is better to stay logged in rather than logging in all the time. Every time you enter a web sites credentials, you are exposing those credentials on the computer.
Which brings us to the logout question: If you don't logout, your credentials can't be stolen. If you stay logged in, a malicious email that asks you to enter your credentials is, well, obviously malicious, because you aren't logged out. The cookies stored in your browser are secure. They can be stolen, but that requires more direct access than a malicious email. If you have such a virus on your computer, you are in big trouble whether you are logged in or out. The virus will wait for you to access critical, well-known websites, such as large banks like Chase or Capital One.
Len writes:
> My concern is not so much about the monetary asset info
stored in Bivio. Instead we are concerned with protecting the personal information that is stored in Bivio (social security numbers, adresses, etc.)
Bivio does not present social security numbers in a way that is easily stealable. If you notice, you only see one social security number at a time, and only administrators see these when they drill down to a particular member in their Roster.
We do present addresses on a single page. This is a very useful feature for most of our users. We don't think this is any different than typical contact managers such as Google Contacts and the Apple contacts app which present this information similarly.
As noted above, if your club administrators choose strong, unique-to-Bivio passwords, you do not need multi-factor authentication imiho. There are known ways to crack multi-factor that work well.
And, finally, if we get people clamoring for MFA, we will certainly bump its priority.
Cheers,
Rob
Robert Nagler on
Hi Sheryl,
> Will you add Louisiana to the states for which you provide tax services then?
We order states by the number of clubs in those states. Our first priority is to implement e-filing for the states that we are currently filing paper returns.
> Will e-filing be possible for the states as well as the Federal tax return?
Yes, e-filing with states will be possible. Implementing e-filing is a complex process so it is hard to say at this point which states will be available when.
Cheers,
Rob
sdstory@aol.com on
Thanks Robert. I am guessing Louisiana has a low priority based on number of clubs. But efiling the federal return will be much more convenient - now that we have all those K2 and K3 forms ! We only have 10 members and it was almost 100 pages !
Sheryl Story
sdstory@aol.com
On Friday, August 19, 2022 at 12:39:59 PM EDT, Robert Nagler <nagler@bivio.biz> wrote:
Hi Sheryl,
> Will you add Louisiana to the states for which you provide tax services then?
We order states by the number of clubs in those states. Our first priority is to implement e-filing for the states that we are currently filing paper returns.
> Will e-filing be possible for the states as well as the Federal tax return?
Yes, e-filing with states will be possible. Implementing e-filing is a complex process so it is hard to say at this point which states will be available when.
Cheers,
Rob
DrDave on
E-Filing is not a high priority for us. Not that big of a deal to print & mail. Even to print 100 pages is not a big deal. Postage and five bucks at something like 5ยข a page.
Seems like it would be a very big deal to program first the fed e-file stuff, then program for all 50 different states.
Yeah, I'm fine with printing & mailing.
E-Filing makes a nice option at extra cost for those who want it.
Going from $179 to $350 per year, doubling the cost, is a big step for a small club such as ours. It's our only option as we are Calif based & will def need a CA return. I'm not saying the new Bivio prices are unfair, or not a good value. But as a club of 9 members (likely to soon be a club of 7 members) I do wish we were a bigger club (of better investors) so that this cost would less per person.
Best,
Dave Nathanson
Hawaiian Shirt Society
On Aug 19, 2022, at 9:39 AM, Robert Nagler <nagler@bivio.biz> wrote:
Hi Sheryl,
> Will you add Louisiana to the states for which you provide tax services then?
We order states by the number of clubs in those states. Our first priority is to implement e-filing for the states that we are currently filing paper returns.
> Will e-filing be possible for the states as well as the Federal tax return?
Yes, e-filing with states will be possible. Implementing e-filing is a complex process so it is hard to say at this point which states will be available when.
Cheers,
Rob
Peter Dunkelberger on
I want to add one last thought to this: Bivio made the
decision to raise the prices. Please do not say you took
our advice. Free advice is barely worth the paper it is
printed on. You guys run Bivio, and you are responsible for
its success or failure. You have done well, even with the
fractured pricing model you formerly had. Our participation
in your decision making is great, but be aware of where the
ultimate responsibility lies for your success.
Michele on
I think a good business wants to show that it is responsive to the requests and needs of its customers.
Maybe you can view what they said in a more positive light.
Michele Grinoch
On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 10:50:04 AM EST, Peter Dunkelberger via bivio.com <user*26984900001@bivio.com> wrote:
I want to add one last thought to this: Bivio made the decision to raise the prices. Please do not say you took our advice. Free advice is barely worth the paper it is printed on. You guys run Bivio, and you are responsible for its success or failure. You have done well, even with the fractured pricing model you formerly had. Our participation in your decision making is great, but be aware of where the ultimate responsibility lies for your success.
Peter Dunkelberger on
You are correct, a good business wants to show that it is responsive to the requests and needs of its customers. Like wanting efiling, etc. A good business is not run at a loss and have to be told by its customers to raise prices, and a good business does not think that converting to a non-charitable not-for-profit will, like a miracle, solve their cash flow problems. Just saying.
I want to add one last thought to this: Bivio made the decision to raise the prices. Please do not say you took our advice. Free advice is barely worth the paper it is printed on. You guys run Bivio, and you are responsible for its success or failure. You have done well, even with the fractured pricing model you formerly had. Our participation in your decision making is great, but be aware of where the ultimate responsibility lies for your success.